Stellaris protectorate vs vassal. 3,600 days is 10 years in Stellaris. Stellaris protectorate vs vassal

 
 3,600 days is 10 years in StellarisStellaris protectorate vs vassal  After that go in, capture claimed systems and release them as a vassal

I've tried looking this up, but either the situation's changed, or there's a lot of bad information out there, because the information out there suggests that Vassals can't expand and don't pay tribute; neither of which appears to be true, given the Vassal options I'm looking at. The UNE is a vassal of my empire, I also had a Aritifical intelligence empire as a protectorate. Wait. Reforming your government does not change their status to vassals and they stay subsidiaries. So for someone like a Ming China or one of the American nations it is a way for them to get to tech faster. Except, the new fleet comes to their rescue, driving of their invaders, and offering you their protection. Get them to agree to it themselves, or force them to submit with a war. Just make sure to status quo on vassal wars instead of fully win them, which will convert all captured enemy territory to your side as a vassal and make them your ideology so they love you. All it takes is a garrison to counter the -4, and slap a friendly envoy on them to make them friendly, perhaps an trade agreement and that -100. 1 to 0. Once you've filled out your specialist roles, this is where most of your vassals end up. Stellaris Wiki Active Wikis. [1] Ancient China Main article: Ancient Chinese states From the time of theA Protectorate is a subject protected by a (to them) technologically superior Empire. This would allow their overlord both exclusive colonization rights as well as total diplomatic dominance. So I have been warring and I have quite a few vassals now. Don't allow someone to 'protect' your empire. 4. For the first option, just studying them (wether passively or actively) may. After that you can propose changes. This page was last edited on 7 June 2023, at 11:13. I integrate until I hit 1k fleet cap, then I stick with one vassal and feed him until he's equivalent. In addition, they have a huge +80% research speed to any technology their Overlord has. The new vassal system lets you specialise subject empires, which then develop handy traits as they level up within the greater empire they're a part of, making that 30% research tax an easy pill. 25 monthly influence. Primarily this would serve as a way to claim a large swathe of land, say Africa or. Release them, then declare a war to make them a tributary. It. 1. A vassal will contribute with 20% of its Naval Capacity to its overlord, 50% with the Fleet Levies tradition. 3. Two I uplifted so they are 1 system vassals in the middle of my Empire and another I took from a neighboring state and has about four systems and is in the direction I would. An empire can become a subject willingly via diplomacy, the acceptance dependent on a number of. They cannot enlighten, covert infiltrate or any other method, to. Vassals contribute significantly less to your empire size than a bunch of colonies. 3. Also vassels and protectorate will never rebel and always be loyal. Go to Stellaris r/Stellaris. Okay, they are my closest ally, but from the looks of things they won't ever agree to being a vassal/protectorate, and so there's always the possibility of them getting a government ethics shift and relations souring. ago. Note that if either of your existing ethics is fanatic it will downgrade to make place for authoritarian as a third ethic. It's small vassals that are completely useless. If your vassal keeps defeating their rebellions, what you could try is using a Colossus on the pesky planets that keep revolting over and over. Afaik there's really no way to speed this up. Both lose research power for their own research (your cut you get from them) while they are themself not any closer to the stuff you research. Subjugation war type will automatically create vassals from the territories captured. An overlord can spam the demands with no timer to exhaust all influence from their vassals. ago. It. FuguofAnotherWorld • 7 yr. 5% increase in trade output back to you. r/Stellaris • Loaned a Vassal a large fleet so they could crush a rebellion, and they turned that fleet into a merc enclave. And there's nothing at all on the Diplo screen about it. All that said, Protectorates are by far the best subject type to stock up on, for that sweet +0. Mr-H-Saether • 5 mo. In addition, they have a. In Vic 3 using the CB "Establish protectorate" should let you vassalize a decentralized (colonizable) nation, protecting them from foreign colonization. So, does Hegemony make feudalism obsolete? Does the Hegemony act as a feudal empire's friendzone? If I wanted a "velvet. Megacorps can't change vassals to a type that isn't Subsidiary. Unless they're at war in which the option will be greyed out, or they're already someone else's. It can also be worth it to integrate them so that their economy and ethics can be improved. Stellaris. You do this by growing your influence in these vassal kingdoms. ago. Find the section about vassals and copy that line that allows integration to the section about protectorates. You mainly get them by releasing empires from other empires. Yeah that makes sense, thanks a lot. If you force status quo while occupying at least one planet, all occupied planets and starbases will be turned into a new liberated empire. usually protectorates never become vassals, since they need 50% of your tech and you can usually out-tech them. The system is just bad. That said if you declared the war you should have had the option to choose between vassal and tributary. Playing on 2. So I guess the title says it all. if you want their territory you vassalize, if you want their energy credits and very much dont want to annex them you go tributary. If you have a Defensive Pact or higher (Alliance. 2. This also gives you the chance to release more subjects as you've mentioned, and thus build more info. This will prevent their ally from joining the war unless they really hate you. In my opinion, it makes sense to restrict their actions, since protectorates are supposed to be very new to spacefaring, and have a very low level of technology compared to. Tributary vs Vassals Stellaris DebateProtectorates are like vassals, except: 1. Stellaris. Funny is the contracts allowed it. Releasing your own vassals works great too as long as you make sure they have a decent starting population of 20-40 pops to work with, assuming you. Edit: As another commenter mentioned, you can also declare a subjugation war on the overlord and gain everybody. It’s not an either-or situation. Triflest • 1 yr. Vassal Contracts Unleashed - Maximum Taxation Submod --- Credits and Thanks to the Stellaris Modding Den ---NotNitehawk, her help with the `Possible` blocks allowed me to overwrite them much more cleanly than my original approach, granting the player much more freedom and the AI far fewer unwanted changes in behaviour. You should try, I said 10 from the top of my head but as they grew (slowly, but they did) I got some 70 energy and 30 minerals before makng them protectorates. A vassal is directly controlled by an empire, whereas a subject pays tribute. You will have to release, claim and conquer. Basically it lets all your subordinates expand (the main disadvantage of being a vassal), so long as they serve you, is the idea. A lot of. They give you +0,25 influence if you accept and then gets -80% to research cost. In this game, there are several different ways to make vassals. Plus they'll get to your technological level so that you get the scientist relay bonus if make them. (which will probably make them immediately downgrade to a Protectorate), integrate it, delete its labs, fill those slots with commercial zones, and re-release it for huge net benefit. Sorann Commonwealth, you're next. This list was initiated with 2. After hundreds of years of research he's still overwhelming in almost every aspect, I asked for protectorate early in the game and now the unbidden just spawned while I conquered some other normal start AI and control about 20 planets. Sorann, Haspalv, Oviir. They will automatically become a vassal when they have reached 40% of your tech level. Protectorate: Can be sponsored in various ways as part of the contract for influence. Protectorate: usually a small empire asks you to protect them if you have superior tech power, and very often after being targeted by previous war(s) they lost. They get a permanent research agreement with you in order to 'catch up' and you get all the benefits of having an additional vassal, and more importantly, the +1 influence for as long as they remain a protectorate. We slowly, methodically, build up our infrastructure. It's very stupid, but you can't integrate them. Protectorate is a special status for vassalized technologically disadvantaged states. tributaries give you a significant portion of their economic output. But each protectorate grants you +1 influence and becomes a vassal once he catched up in tech. Vassals must spend influence to deny your contract negotiation request. ago Conquering directly just gives you the planets and populations directly, and will generally be strongest. I generally leave vassals as vassals unless I need the land or they are completely opposed to me. . For Stellaris 2. What I don't understand are these issues: 1- Built a holding that default gives 2 loyalty and an additional up to 1. You can play an Imperialist with the Feudal Society pick much easier and enjoyable. If you want a megacorp vassal you're going to have to vassalize a megacorp. If you win, the old empire will remain and will just change ethics. emptiness Sep 8, 2018 @ 8:39am. I definitely agree but the vassal system is very underdeveloped in stellaris (and basically irrelevant, without mods as the vassals get no bonuses). there's a lot to say about stellaris' war systems. In cases where the vassal in question is large and rebellious, integration and re-releasing might be prudent. They get a one sided defense pact with. Since they were a protectorate wouldn’t this be considered an act of war or something?I ran into an early space age primitive planet 5 years into the game and immediately worked to enlighten them. Stellaris needs a mature galaxy option in game set-up. It's because released sectors have all tech you already do, so they would immediately convert to a vassal anyways. For all of you who cry that it takes 100 years to integrate a vassal let's look at the facts. Before that, protectorate-turns-vassal happens with weak cordial empires, and I just play along my federation allies' claim wars. AND you can integrate protectorates into your empire. Protectorate no research cost discount NOR research agreement [v3. You can't integrate Tributaries until you vassalize them, which likely won't happen unless you declare war on them with the Demand of vassalization. When demands come up, you’ll be given a variety of choices, one of which is “Vassalize. Forced submission: You automatically get a subjugation Casus Beli on any empire that is overall "inferior" to you in fleet, tech, and economic power. A look at the Prospectorium specialist vassal empire and a glance at new origin icons with their names: 2022-03-31 5: New Friends: Reveal of three new enclaves (Salvagers, Shroudwalkers, and Mercenary), the Bulwark specialist vassal empire, more Overlord holdings, the Imperial Fiefdom civic: 2022-04-07 6: Elevating CivilizationSo apparently there is a dead zone with respect to the size empire you are allowed to vassalize vs. This page was last edited on 7 June 2023, at 04:39. You get secret fealty CB on their overlord. It adds 9 new types of subject empires for default countries (1 for each ethics + 1 for hives), 9 new types of subject empires for megacorporations (1 for each. Thread starter Abdulijubjub; Start date Apr 14,. There have been a number of changes to the game since then. 3. Pre-FTL civilizations are civilizations that have yet to develop the technology necessary. 1. You can instead use the Impose Ideology wargoal and after winning and their government and ethics shift you might be able to convince them to be your vassal or protectorate if they're small enough of an empire. They'll like you a lot after the war so it will really come down to size/power difference between your empire and theirs. Learn more about Vassalization Rebalance at GameJunkie. which likely won't happen unless you declare war on. Tributary or Vassal - Stellaris - Games Crack Protectorate: usually a small empire asks you to protect them if you have superior tech power, and very often after being targeted by previous war(s) they lost. Once that's figured out, you just have to type one line of code to allow protectorates to be integrated. For example, following a similar progression with the federation and having years to unlock certain features or being able to 'set rights' of a vassal like you can a species. I want to know what's better, protectorate or tributary. - Nerf protectorate type vassals to only give +0. All Discussions. Two ways to get a vassal. Vassals are even worse on higher difficulties, since no matter. For everything else, you can manually change the terms of an agreement, but the other party has to accept those terms before. You should be able to release sectors as vassals as Fanatic Purifier. There is a 60 months timer after vassalization. When everyone is "inferior" or "pathetic" and fallen empires are "equivalent. I want to break free from being a subject but 'Declare War' option is closed; when I move the cursor over, it says "You cannot declare war on an allied country, break the alliance first. Sheodoq • Synth • 6 yr. Content is available under Attribution-ShareAlike 3. How, then, can you choose between tributary vs. Making them exponentially stronger. Previously in Stellaris, subjugation was rarely a more compelling option than simple conquest, and being subjugated often essentially meant a permanent decline of your empire and a “Game Over” screen in your near future. 25 influence a protectorate. To do this method, whoever you’re trying to make your Vassal must be at peace. Presets have a list of default terms and can have additional unique effects tied to them, like how Protectorates gain a massive bonus to research until they catch up to their overlord. Removes outside species from empire for managing faction attraction and unity costs. However since Ai's loose 1 to their difficulty setting when becoming vassals to the player they essentially become non-competitors in the game and can never catch up. 0 to 1. After 2 techs completed, i could only ask to be their vassal. So to be made a protectorate they need greater than a 50% tech difference. Protectorates are tricky because usually the technology gap doesn't exist to create them but I've had luck doing it with newly self-enlightened races. Then you can integrate them quicker. 0. It would solve the issue of vassal targets being too weak to be worth it, and it should be naturally balanced as a successful war against an equal requires significant investment. It should be easy to get them to willingly accept vassal or protectorate status, and then you'll have helpful and willing collaborators to oppress the native xeno scum for you. Delete this thread please, it got necroed and then out of hand since people didnt realise they reacted to one year old comments. If they don't switch to Protectorate for being too weak compared to you, you can change their type. If your vassal has under a certain percentage of the tech you have, they're considered a protectorate. If you are ok micromanaging, you can incorporate them, gene mod and fix their planets, then release as a vassal again. They can be made plentiful or outright disabled via the galaxy generation options . I don’t want to go to war because I have a good relationship with them and they are allies with most of the rest of the galaxy. (So in case as humans you move your capital to alpha centauri and. Best. These would be vassal investments of at least 30 years realistically, but in a 'normal' Stellaris game they are your biggest long-term investments you can make before the Crisis endgame of 200 years in. Make tons of specialized vassals to stack up their bonuses. Jump to latest Follow Reply. DoeCommaJohn • 2 yr. lubed_assassin. This probably works best with wealth generation, 75% tax on a one system vassal would then be a 7. A subject is an empire that has a special diplomatic relationship with another empire, called the overlord. You can not integrate subsidiaries. You can vassalize by liberating a group of systems, then vassalizing the resulting empire formed of those systems. PanglosstheTutor • 7 yr. Suzerainty ( / ˈsuːzərənti, - rɛnti /) includes the rights and obligations of a person, state or other polity which controls the foreign policy and relations of a tributary state, but allows the tributary state internal autonomy. If the total number is positive, you'll see a green checkmark and they'll accept the demand, otherwise they. ago. I tried taking off the claims manually, but it still doesn’t work. your master with the goal to release you. Offer a trade deal: give them 10 Favors and don't ask for anything in exchange. Protectorate. They always join your wars no matter what but they can't be declared on, they're the perfect buffer. I too remember the wiki stating they'd become protectorates, but they never did for me. But I cant push the agreement any more favorable than it already is. . #1. Tributaries do have a benefit to them. 2. Like Vassal 1 focuses all its invention on making a laser which can heat plasma up. They have an added benefit of reduced tech cost for the nation on the receiving end. They get 80% reduced tech costs on every tech you've researched. Yet still they wont agree to it under these terms. One thing that has bugged me for a while is how the start of a new game is basically a ready, set, go for all empires bar the Fallen Empires. This doesn't work in Cepheus. you always have Subjugation CB if they refuse. However, while their Overlord will protect them if they're attacked they do NOT have to follow their Overlord into war. Puppet is a modern term, and usually is just a state with teh same goverment as yours, and that is completly complient to you vassal is a medieval term and usually allows alot of autonomy, depending on the type of vassal it may be, some consider a tributary as a vassal, and some other consider the King of England (also the duke of. After a period of time you can then go back to your vassals and have the integrate into your empire. A vassal or client state can be diplomatically annexed by its overlord through the Annex vassal option. If you arent a megacorp then you get the expropiate casus belis. Stellaris 50441 Bug Reports 30770 Suggestions 19129 Tech Support 2887 Multiplayer 377 User Mods. So it looks like vassals in Stellaris are more like protectorates in EU4. Content is available under Attribution-ShareAlike 3. Protectorates are the only way to artificially boost influence, at . Stellaris. A vassal cannot colonize new planets. If you drop a 600 influence cost vassalage negotiation on current vassal that has only 400 influence in their stockpile, they won't be able to refuse. (Like 80/20) You need to have compatible beliefs. 4. Aesclepius713 • 2 yr. Unless they changed it, Protectorates gain additional research bonuses to technology you, their overlord, already has. 27. The Protectorate gains a major research-bonus to all technologies that their Overlord has already researched, and is automatically converted to a Vassal when having progressed far enough technologically. Sorexit was not good and you know it. Things were nice, but they noticed we would eventually surpass them and started integration. Either method could have certain conditions that if not met would then cause the level to decrease (in the federation model) or the 'rights' to be revoked. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the 4X grand strategy game Stellaris by Paradox Development Studio. Source: Video Game / Stellaris A third option is the tributary which is the opposite of a protectorate; whereas a protectorate is effectively subservient to it's overlord and a vassal can end up rivaling it's master, tributaries are essentially independent but. 2. They aren’t going to. More of a child then an extented body part. Stellaris Real-time strategy Strategy video game Gaming 2 comments Best RandomScifiFan • 5 yr. Things were nice, but they noticed we would eventually surpass them and started integration. Protectorate an uplifted pre-FTL species for an increase in monthly influence and a potentially powerful ally at the end of it all, or Vassalise an empire for some. Each protectorate gives you 0. I slowly start to expand in the direction of my new vassal, painstakingly building mining and research stations, and then giving them the systems. Once they attain a certain % of your technology, they will become a vassal, and you will no longer get the +1 influence. Edit: Vassal claims on other empires in war should be granted to the overlord and the overlord should decide whether they deserve th e systems at the end of the war. Yes, one vassal may be able to build a powerful enough laser, but. This page was last edited on 7 June 2023, at 04:39. Their main function is to give you some military backup. (Friendly) You need to be way more powerful than them. If you use this CB, the former subject will join your side in the war. Imagine their perspective. FC - A protectorate becomes a vassal at 60%, a vassal becomes a protectorate (automatically) at 50%. For vassal creation,. This page was last edited on 7 June 2023, at 04:39. 0. Every. There’s no natural way to swap without releasing them at one point. They can inherit other types through various shenanigans, but they cannot create their own. you cannot create a federation with a vassal or protectorate, the first two empires in a federations have to be fully independent, could trade for 2 favors and spend that to increase acceptance by 10 though Reply. Protectorate: Can be sponsored in various ways as part of the contract for influence. You need to be neighboring to project the power necessary to protect your vassal/protectorate or threaten your tributary. This is a problem because Stellaris does not respect borders or distance except for moving ships. Not only does this bonus not display anywhere other than the building (so not in the subject agreement screen) but even with three stationed armies there is no bonus displayed anywhere. Apr 28, 2021 1. One was able to win since the defence forces never got healed from previous battles and they got wiped out by my defence fleet in the area and colonised with full fury again. ago. Tributaries do have a benefit to them. In the folder Stellariscommonagreement_presets you can find the file 00_agreement_presets. Protectorate is annexation and puppet is basically putting them in your sphere of influence a little more permanently. I hope this is fixed because the potential for these systems is great!Stellaris 50480 Bug Reports 30904 Suggestions 19154 Tech Support 2899 Multiplayer 377 User Mods. (-1000 trade acceptance) I've been called into a border war by another empire; we've won, but I ended up with 3 systems filled with fungoid dudes that I do not want. 3. Just form a federation with any other non-vassal empire and enable the "Vassals can join" option. Puppets can be very useful. lordxanon. However, vassals do drain your influence and cost even more to integrate. force_integrate <Empire ID>. Having a protectorate gives . ) One option you may not have considered: if they're not Decadent, liberate! Liberation creates a new empire of the native species that shares your ethics and is initially friendly toward you. 0 unless otherwise noted. 5. Please note these costs are over and above a base cost of 20 influence points. I can select this and "Proceed" to change them to a Protectorate. In CK3, you can modify contracts whenever the hell you want, so long as you have the money/blackmail/whatever to do so. immediately, before your vassal has. Since you can stack anchorage star bases for increased naval cap, and because upkeep costs so much more now, the extra fleet cap from vassals is negligible compared to the extra resources from. The likelihood of them accepting my independence is currently . I'm the most advanced empire in the galaxy and no one's ever going to catch up to me for default vassal tools to work. 0. However, the real allure of a megacorp vassal is the ability to get 75% basic resource tribute from that energy. Have your vassals all follow your doomstack. You have to move your capital to another planet and if you click the create vassal button afterwards you can create a vassal with your own species owning your former capital world. You can check the modifiers by hovering over the red x (or the green checkmark) next to the demand vassalization text. mcsproot Apr 14, 2017 @ 1:41pm. if they have more than that, they can only become a vassal. Even with this boost though, it can take some time. Don't know of any other way you could possibly become a protectorate, unless you were a super weak empire and they offered protectorate status to you and you clicked the. Ablative vassal armor. Vassal two researches a way to contain the plasma. I turned a strong neighbor into a prospectorium, I'm in charge of a strong federation and about to synthetically ascend. Once you've got everything right, hit the Copy button and paste it into the console in Stellaris. Unless this was specifically changed recently, this 10-year timer still applies to protectorates gained through. ago. Overlord will be focusing heavily on the subject of. No no it was the other way round. With allies and vassals being completely brain dead during wartime the benefit of the vassal having a fleet is null. It's 40%, and a research agreement is the best you can do besides maybe. (This will be the case if you have 5* their. Protectorate an uplifted pre-FTL species for an increase in monthly influence and a potentially powerful ally at the end of it all, or Vassalise an empire for some. 4. Stellaris lacks the broad spectrum of victory conditions which could recognise the validity of the many different ways to play the game. So subjects have a super trash economy compared to player. The Asimov update makes a further distinction between a protectorate and a vassal. As well as encouraging the spectrum of playstyles Stellaris is otherwise. However, a megacorp also entails a trade build (usually), and that produces CG. Correction: Only voluntary protectorates. Все. ago. isn't entirely true either: you have to be superior in fleet, tech and economy at once. Once you've filled out your specialist roles, this is where most of your vassals end up. I have no idea on that. Rord64 Mar 18, 2018 @ 6:06am. Also, you should be able to release your subjects. ago. r/Stellaris • De-tox vs climate restoration. Protectorates have limited Diplomacy like Vassals and cannot build new Starbases. They get a permanent research agreement with you in order to 'catch up' and you get all the benefits of having an additional vassal, and more importantly, the +1 influence for as long as they remain a protectorate. Vassal builds own fleet and with domination increases your fleet cap. They also generate +1 influence per month for their overlord. Conquest is better, but vassals are fun for role playing. To get them as protectorate you need high relations, customs union and an obligation and under 25 infamy (they have to be neutral opinion afterwards so start. The use of vassal states continued. Once they have 50% of your researched techs they become a vassal. 3. No option to negotiate for a specialized subject. ago. Note that the empire pledging secret fealty will NOT join your side if you use other CBs. ago. I have a vassal (of type Vassal, not Protectorate). Protectorates. 53 Badges. ) Protectorates are great, you get +1 influence for each one. min. I was roleplaying a caretaker species but vassals don't expand. x. - Changing your subject's name: To do this, I made it so your subject name will change to the name of your Capital system. 4 for 1, 1 for 2, 2 for 3, and 4 for 4). Tehnomaag • 6 yr. 965. - Florence and Venice certainly had vassal states when they were major powers, while being quite egalitarian for the time. What I don't understand are these issues: 1- Built a holding that default gives 2 loyalty and an additional up to 1. A vassal also run the risk of a full diplomatic integration by their Overlord. x (in Steam Workshop ) (If you see my post in Stellaris Bug Report subforum analyzing a specific bug, it. The Terran Protectorates are semi-sovereign states that are nominally independent of direct Terran control, but are still beholden to Terran foreign policy and military direction. The UNE integrated the artificial intelligence empire and I want to know how this is possible. The total number of holdings you are permitted, defaults to one on my recent war to make a vassal, is empire wide. The wiki doesn't say immediately: Integration - Vassals and Protectorates that an empire possess for longer than 3,600 days can be peacefully "integrated" by paying influence, at a rate of 5 influence a month. From beginning on I had three neighboring, strong empires. That's interesting, I didn't know (or I guess notice) that protectorates can colonize but vassals can't. [deleted] • 5 yr. So, if you have enough influence, you can brute force the change. 0 unless otherwise noted. 2. Vassal Stole My Planet b/c of new Claim System. Temporarily you can keep them as buffers between you and some powerful neighbor. I wanted them to expand. (This requires a monarchy government to use, it lets all vassals expand on their own and reduces the relation penalty that Vassal power has By 50%. Content is available under Attribution-ShareAlike 3. If a vassal falls under 50% tech of their overlord they will convert into a protectorate. I'm playing a game of Stellaris for the first time in about 8 months or so. Behave almost exactly the same as a vassal. You can write that mod yourself, as all you need is just one single number at the right place. Plus, you won’t be spending the next 50 odd years fixing 3 happiness issues and 4. . There is something to be said for 4X-style victory conditions, which usually allow for diplomatic, scientific, and cultural ways to win. Involuntary protectorates (those forced on by war, or those forced on uplifted species) will not give you +1 influence. I believe you gain +1 Influence per month for each protectorate you have. 0 unless otherwise noted. 5 influence. 1 Answer. Best. If Overlords could micro manage the empire types of their vassals then it would defeat half the reasons why the changes were made in the first place. Annexation occupies a diplomat until complete, and results in direct control of the former subject's territory and military. You have 2 options for war, vassalize or cede planets. Tributaries themselves are kinda meh and supposedly pretty bugged in 1. Yes but, They still count as a subject so unity from the tradition, and give . x. they're very flexible, but require some time to set up. After that 12 month window you need to ask them again.